Creative Conversations with Vince Frost

UNSW Centre for Ideas
UNSW Centre for Ideas
 

Claire Annesley
Good evening everybody. Welcome to Paddington, to the School of Art and design. Our amazing experimental art and design school here in the Faculty of Arts, Design and Architecture at the University of New South Wales. My name is Claire Annesley, and I have the great job of being Dean of the Faculty of Arts, Design and Architecture. We're meeting here tonight on the traditional lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation.

I pay my respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are joining us for this event tonight. Thank you so much for being here tonight. It's been an extraordinarily difficult week with many of our families, friends and communities affected by the recent attacks in Sydney, and I'd like to take a moment to remember and honour those who lost their lives. And that included a member of our own alumni community. And we feel that loss very, very deeply.

Tonight's event is the second in a series of creative conversations that we are collaborating on with Vince Frost and the Frost Collective, and the idea behind these events is to create a space where industry, creative practitioners, new staff and students can all come together and build a community and discuss topics that specifically address or affect the creative industries and community that so many of us are part of.

These events are hosted by the ADA Innovation Hub, which is a design led, projects based initiative at the heart of our faculty that focuses on problem solving projects with industry, community and government partners. We partnered with Frost Collective for our first event last November, and that was about AI and creative industries and the challenges and the potential the AI poses for creative practitioners.

Our topic tonight is ‘scaling creative businesses’, and we felt that this was the perfect second conversation. And it's going to cover everything from honing craft to shaping profitable businesses. And it's also going to be really debunking the myths that the creative mind can't also be an entrepreneurial mind.

So now it's my great pleasure to introduce you to our host for this evening. And that is Vince Frost. Vince is, founder, CEO and creative director of Frost Collective, a globally recognised and awarded creative who is passionately committed to designing for a better world. My sincere thanks to you, Vince, for joining us for hosting this conversation tonight and for partnering with us on this event. And thank you as well to the panellists for their expertise and insights and everything that you're going to share with this fabulous audience tonight.

Vince, over to you.

 

Vince Frost
Thank you so much. It's always a true honour to be standing here today, in front of you guys and be part of this program. conversations about creativity, design, etc. are so exciting and so dear to my heart. And it wasn't that long ago, 43 years ago, I was a student at an art school, and I went to art school because I was really crap at everything else.

Luckily there was art school and I found the thing that I love, which was design and visual communication and it's really interesting when you’re starting off as a young designer  - or trying to be a designer at that point - you kind of at a time… I was never, never even understood what business was necessarily or that what I was doing could become a business.

But it's really interesting, the business of design or the business of a creative person being in business is it's kind of interesting because I start off as a young designer, incredibly naive, passionate about doing design and problem solving and the craft of designing things, no matter what they might be. And it wasn't until I went out on my own that I realised more about business, and I realised I knew nothing about business, and I was seriously failing quickly.

And I had just really tried to work out what I needed to do to get myself back on track or to kind of make a career of what, what I was doing. And it was really about kind of designing as I went, asking lots of advice - talking to people - once I got the confidence to do that, because I was scared like crazy for a lot of the time.

But it doesn't have to be that way. And today, you know, forty three years later, I managed to grow a business of about 45 people here in Sydney, feel much more confident about business. But equally, I feel like at times it can be taken away at any moment. It's not kind of a given that you start a business and it succeeds.

It's not a given that you start a business and it's and it's easy. So any insights that you can take, including the ones tonight from our wonderful guests on their lives and how they've kind of tackled, business, and getting into business is a real opportunity to have a think about how you might tackle your life and to make it better or try different things, or maybe make the… When I talk to people, I always think about people who talk about risk taking. And I kind of really avoid that. I just think that, if I can avoid taking any risks altogether, I will do that. You know, I don't want to fail at anything. Because it's painful when you do, and it's really hard. It can be really hard.

So I think the panel would agree that being in business is actually… it's a wonderful thing.  You're passionate, you feel excited every day. But equally, we're talking earlier, some days can be incredibly hard. And some days you want to give the key back to somebody, for them to take it off your hands. But I still remain optimistic. Optimistic 40 years later or 30 years now in business, I can't. I still a passion about getting up every morning and getting on with, the business and the work. And at the end of the day, helping other people as well, which is ultimately what we we're about. So I'm kind of, I also feel kind of strange…

It's like when I went to art school back in England, I was going to do a further degree. And I went to a whole bunch of whole bunch interviews around the country, some kind of top design schools, and I couldn't get into any of them, possibly because I was wearing a suit and a tie at the time. I don't know, but I kind of remember just thinking. ‘Jesus.’ And then years later, maybe only 5 or 6 years later after I left Pentagram and start my own thing, they were the ones that are asking me back to teach the students, which was quite funny. But part of this is about learning as you go along the way as well.

So I'm joined by incredible panel. And I really appreciate you guys giving you a time tonight, to share your time because it's really, valuable. but be important. And Shelley Simpson is the founder and creative director at Mud, a wonderful woman and one of the world's leading porcelain hardware, homeware brands, with about the ten stores around the world.

Twelves now. Wow. It was ten yesterday, but now she's growing. So she's grown her creative business, which is really, really cool. And also I just want to touch on that too... Well, I'll touch on that after I introduced Shelley.. She celebrates 30th year in business, this year, which is really cool. So congratulations, Shelley. And it's really cool to see that you've grown from starting it back in 1994, same year we started, funnily enough, to 100 people and, and we'll talk more about how that happened, why it happened, and what it's like, growing that business.

My next guest is  Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran, the Sri Lanka born contemporary artist explores global histories and language of figurative representation, is one Australia's most highly regarded artist and is also a UNSW alumni, having studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts and a master of Fine Arts here in the early 20 tens, Ramesh’s incredible work has been exhibited at numerous international leading galleries including Art Basel, Hong Kong, National Gallery of Australia, the Dakar Arts Summit, The Dark Mofo Festival to name a few. Welcome, Ramesh.

Professor Frederik Anseel is the interim dean, at UNSW Business School Master of Industrial and Organisational psychology. I needed this guy, I needed him, like, way back. And as an expert on how people and organisations learn and adapt to change. He’s held senior roles and numerous internationally acclaimed and internationally leading university across the UK, his native Belgium, Italy, France and for the past five years here at UNSW. He regularly contributes to major national publications on the topic of business and consults to executives across diverse industries.

Welcome, Frederik. So, as I said earlier, kind of being a business early on, when I after I left design school, I worked for a few, small design companies in England in Brighton and then in London. And then I went to Pentagram, which is a very, very incredible company that's in London and in New York.

And I knew then when I walked into that place that that was where I was really going to learn how to do what I, what I needed to do. And that was a real eye opener. Spent five years there, from the age of, I think 21 and in those five years I went from being a volunteer junior working for nothing for about 3 or 4 months, to becoming associate partner five years later.

And so in that time, I kind of touched on something that… felt something that really motivated me, which was I truly found the thing that I loved and that makes such a difference because life is actually really interesting. We're talking in a university right now about career and about what you're doing and all that, and we kind of presume that everybody finds what they love in life.

And I've talked to so many people over the years who sometimes never find the thing, always looking for the thing that they really love. Some people have found it and then redesign their lives and done something completely different. And I love that just as much as well. So life is ultimately about a journey, and we never stop learning.

One thing that we learned… that we thought when we were at design school was, once you got your degree and you're out in the world, you were done learning. But clearly, we're here today because we want to hear from other people and hear how, they get on with their lives. So we've been running a business for 30 years, and it's been really interesting trying to do what you love, which is basically design and branding, publication design, etc., and trying to kind of run a business at the same time.

For a long time I was working in the business as a designer, and it took me probably 15 plus years to work out how to work on the business. I was always the CEO, but I really was the creative director, and I really wasn't understanding how best to run the business. And the business did well on the back of just being busy - were so busy, that were just kept going through it and getting through it, sometimes to the detriment of being in business.

Sometimes it was close and sometimes today it can be as well. But it's never dull. And over time… we’re going to talk about that tonight. Over time, you kind of realise through asking for help or realising that you can't be good at everything, and continue to kind of look at how do I design a better business, how do we be a better business to be able to do better work and to serve our customers and our clients, etc.?

But also, what gives you a lot of pride is when you're growing a business is not just, not the financial aspect of it, but the fact that you can create an organisation for other people to thrive in. And that's something that gives me the most pride, makes me feel proud now, is having my team kind of thriving in in the environment that we're creating by creating opportunities for them… work and all that. Opportunities to collaborate.

Opportunities to work internationally on projects and things like that. So we're all learning, we're all learning off each other. And I think that that's super, super cool. So by no means do I have all the answers for how to run a very successful business, but I continue to look at how to tweak the business and look at who to bring in to help us on our journey.

Shelley, you've been in business for 30 years as well as I mentioned before. Are you going to do that? Is it 29
 

Shelley Simpson
It's well… I actually was talking to a girlfriend the other day, and she said, I always say that I'm turning whatever age it is, and I'm, it's the year I'm going to turn that. Okay. So we are turning 30 this year.
 

Vince Frost
All right.
 

Shelley Simpson
I think it’s July.
 

Vince Frost
I'm one year older than… okay.
 

Shelley Simpson
Yeah.

Vince Frost
How did Mud… Let's just talk about how Mud came about and why.

Shelley Simpson
I moved into a share house. And somebody had a kick wheel in the back shed. And that  was my first experience with clay. and I just fell in love with it pretty quickly.  The beauty of working, like throwing is that you can't think of anything else if you're not focused on what you're doing, you fail.

And, so it was just a lovely escape. I was 30 years old and I was not really liking my life very much. And I found clay and I just fell into it, and that was all I wanted to do. And I pretty much did that. Made terrible things and gave them as gifts. And people were people were incredibly kind, and it made me feel really good. It's like baking a cake and giving it to someone, and they were always beautiful compliments. But it's only recently that I've actually thought back about the things that I was making, and they were not very good. But I could do something that I couldn't do as well. And, that was kind of a nice feeling.

Vince Frost
But looking back now, 29 years later. Yeah. did you think at that time that you were going to grow the business that you are today?
 

Shelley Simpson
I always wanted… when I started, when I made a decision to leave my job and do the New Enterprise Incentive Scheme, which is still a scheme that's around, and write a business plan. I always wanted it to be a business. So it was, it was about making lovely things. I didn't think that I was… I didn't think of myself necessarily as a creative person or as an artist or artistic person. I just found this thing that I loved and I just wanted to do it all the time. So that meant for me employing myself.
 

Vince Frost
That's really interesting. I think that just looking at the audience too, just thinking that we're not saying there is one way to do this, some people just feel comfortable working for somebody else. There's nothing wrong with that. Some creative people, people like, you know, pretty good friends of designers who do incredible work and, and they're one person or they sometimes I have an assistant.

It's not about scale. You don't have to grow a massive business for the sake of growing a massive business. because whatever, whatever is right for you.
 

Shelley Simpson
I think if opportunities come, and I think it's the potential of the business for me that always drives me and the people. So there was always from the early days, there was potential, and I wanted to do something else or create something else. So it was whether it was within the range that we created or where I could, who I could sell it to, because that's kind of an interesting process as well.

Like if I got on a plane and went to New York and had a meeting with the people at Saks Fifth Avenue, would they buy what I made? Or would I go across the road to Bergdorf Goodman and sell it there instead? Or, you know, doing a trade show in Paris and what happens when you do that? It's just the potential was always… I found it really… And still there's so many exciting opportunities come when you're in business and the longer you stay doing it the more they come.
 

Vince Frost
Yeah, I think we talked about all of us together. We talked the other day, and I think the both of you said that there's a certain amount of naivete in the beginning. And possibly without that naivete, you wouldn't have started a business.
 

Shelley Simpson
Maybe.
 

Vince Frost
Yeah.
 

Shelley Simpson
I think I mean, you can always go in with this sort of. ‘Oh, yeah, I'm going to do this’. And but you also don't know when you're stepping forward, what you're stepping forward into. What is it like when you've got because we actually employ 140 people in three countries with different legislations and rules are in every place.

So that in itself is a huge undertaking. I think I know way too much about compliance for a creative person. And the thing is, if you are the owner of the company, then you, the buck stops with you. So it's not good enough to say, oh, I didn't understand that bit. You actually need to take responsibility for all of it.
 

Vince Frost
Ramesh, you, you studied here and now you're teaching here as well. You’re one of Australia's most highly regarded contemporary artists in a relatively short period of time, too. What's driven that? You know, what's, what's motivated you?
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
Can I wind back for a second? Yeah, I think I think what's really interesting for me, being in this context is, I think when you're working as an artist and you're trained as an artist and you are exposed to, I guess, a fairly conventional model of art pedagogy, which is university. if you're looking at data, most professional artists have some kind of tertiary training. It's not the only form of training, but I guess when you're going through art school.

You know, it's almost like the ideas are the most important thing. And this proximity between art and capital, art and capitalism, art and business is almost this kind of a tacked on fantasy. You know, you're really thinking philosophically and materially and speculatively a lot of the time. And then you get kind of thrown into the real world and you don't know what GST is, you know, and that's kind of what happened to me a little bit like and I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

I'm just saying it's kind of interesting to be so explicit about the connections between especially contemporary art and business in a public forum, because it's actually quite taboo for contemporary artists to talk about that quite explicitly and openly, because I think there's this almost cultural myth that if an artist is successful financially, they must not A, be socially and politically minded or might not have work that is cerebral, you know, and I think these kinds of discriminatory views, are reflective of a number of things.

And I think, you know, in some ways they're culturally and regionally specific. but that's a whole other panel. But what I will say is, I never started I never was like, I want to be an artist and thought, I'm creating a business.

You know, I never… that was never that was never something that I even thought I'd have the potential to scale in that capacity. But in all, for tax reasons, in a very kind of banal, pragmatic sense, I run a business and I have employees. And I think what really resonated me, with me, with what you said, is the buck stops with you at every decision it's your reputation that's on the line. You know?

And I think that's one of the hardest parts about being at a position where I'm at when I work with lots of people to make some of my artworks at least. But when I started, I, I kind of just loved art, I loved drawing, it was the thing that I loved doing the most. And I had a very conventional, say, academic primary school, high school. I went to Sydney Boys High around the corner and I think what I often forget now or have repressed, is that for me to actually pursue art vocationally, it was quite a cultural subversion, you know, in my migrant, you know, Tamil community. Like we didn't do that. And I got a lot of resistance and nastiness from the community.

And, you know, all my cousins did medicine and engineering. And here I am, like painting with my fists, you know, and that's kind of sometimes happened. And I kind of… what I think I'm the most grateful for is being from that migrant context. Like, I grew up in western Sydney, a very like working class background. From very early on, like I had to work hard, like I've had a job since I was 14, you know, and this kind of energy is what I brought to my art practice. But I'm also really interested in all those kinds of philosophical rumination and all of those things. And I think reflecting on maybe where I am now and how I've always had a vision about where I want to be in a few years or in five years, and thought about how to build relationships to get to that stage.

And one practical example of that is I've always thought to myself, oh, I want to make like massive things that could be in public space. How do I do that? And then I thought, ‘Oh, wait a minute’, I need to build collaboration, collaborative relationships with specific partners, fabricators, designers, technicians over time to up scale and build capacity. So I started doing that in micro ways that have now become macro ways.

And I think the next step for me quite, strategically is thinking about, I guess, internationalising the practice in a more, targeted kind of way. And it's a similar approach. But I think what I've understood very much from the beginning is that I think there's a lot of mysticism around this idea that, you know, the artist is this kind of genius that works alone, and you can't interfere with their ideas.

And I've never really believed that. Like whenever I work with curators in museums, I say, look, can you just be intrusive? I like the back and forth. You can literally say, what if that head was pink? And it's not offensive. And I think I've always understood that it's actually the relationships that you're able to nurture and grow around you and in unison and in tandem.

That is what creates and builds your capacity to actually have a business as an artist.
 

Vince Frost
So it sounds like that collaboration, as you were the curators and stuff, that's your learning and your work is changing because of that interaction.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
Well, I think making art should never be easy. That's a philosophy that I have. And I think having… I always bring it back to my childhood, which was a very like… I wasn't allowed really to do anything but study, you know, and weirdly, I liked doing that. So it wasn't even like a punishment or a forced thing, like the pursuit of knowledge and learning. And even now, like, that's something that I love - thinking about other disciplines and all that stuff. So in a way, the kind of speculative potential of art was perfect for a mind like mine.

But what I think is the best thing for an artist or a creative person, is actually that fluidity of creative vision and actually understanding that you actually don't have the most expertise a lot of the time in the room and that that level of… kind of sometimes it feels like stepping aside because you know what it’s like actually it's, you know, it's your brand, it's your company. And then sometimes you're like, actually, I'm going to step back and let you make that decision. And I think it's those times where I've found to be the most creatively rewarding.
 

Shelley Simpson
I agree with that because I think what happens, we are a very collaborative company. We sit down and have very long meetings and big discussions around all of these ideas, whether it's a marketing idea or a, you know, where the next store is going to be. Everybody has a has an opinion, and that's where all the good stuff comes from.

It's not necessarily my idea.
 

Vince Frost
Frederick, you're the guy that's supposed to be teaching us this stuff from the outset, right?
 

Frederik Anseel
Yes. I love listening to these stories. I study creativity and innovation management, and I'll be a bit provocative. The reason I study creativity and innovation management is because in business schools, we teach everything except creativity. So we teach everything around it. And so we will talk about how you structure your company, how you can scale, how you put in management layers, how you finance things, how you build, an audience or a customer base, supply chains or everything with the assumption that somewhere there there's a beating heart, right?

There's an engine of energy, I would say, and that is that creative vision. But in business schools, we sort of take that for granted. And we think, well, hopefully somebody will come along with that vision, right? Yeah. and we'll be great and doing all the rest around it. and we teach around this and we have formulas and we have manuals and books and everything, but that hole in the middle, we don't know a lot about, where that comes from.

And how do how do we deal with that? And I find that hugely interesting. So that's why I love listening to those things. And also, so my, my background is I'm a psychologist. And so I put people sometimes in experiments and labs and do tasks. Sometimes I put them in a scanner and I look at their brains, what is happening if they’re creative… actually you don't learn a lot from that. There's not a lot of difference between creative people and, and the general public in the brain, we hope. We look at the brains and there's nothing to see there. Right. There's lights going on and, yeah.

But you learn a lot from listening and sort of being immersive. So I once did a project, university I worked at the time probably still hates me for it... so I was very, very interested in creative process. And I thought, ‘What is actually a very good context that I'm interested in to study it?’ And so I thought ‘creativity in chefs of Michelin restaurants.’ and so I started visiting a lot of Michelin restaurants where the university credit card.
 

Vince Frost
Yeah.


Frederik Anseel
You should have seen my account. And but it was very interesting because, they let me into the kitchen, they the days and let me share in the creative process how that was very collaborative as well. And so I've learned a lot from it. But of course I remain in business school. And so the thinking is then how do you get from a creative idea or a very creative person?

So what happens after that? And I love the idea, what you were saying is.. it can there's no model, there's no formula. It can be big, it can be very big, it can be small. But I do think that creative people have almost an urge to get that idea out there and that it has impact in whatever way. Right?
 

Vince Frost
Yeah.
 

Frederik Anseel
It needs to touch more people than just that one person. And that is, I think, where the scaling comes in.
 

Vince Frost
And despite kind of in a way, kind of doing it without knowing necessarily how to do it, I think a lot of people like creatives to kind of follow their craft for the thing that they love the making of whatever that might be, and put their heart and soul into that. I think there's a guy called Michael Gerber that wrote a book about the E myth that a lot of people are perceived as being entrepreneurs, but they're really people who are just following their craft. And often they kind of grow to the point where they, they kind of in a way break themselves as because they're just so busy trying to deliver and, you know, keep up with the, the, the return or the interest in what they're doing.
 

Vince Frost
Yeah.
 

Frederik Anseel
And that's where the almost the paradox of a lot of this is everything that makes the creative person so valuable and so strong is also the Achilles heel. I'll give you an example right. So for a lot of businesses, this creative idea, the vision, that is the engine. And because it almost touches on something that people cannot explain, but it resonates with a lot of people, sometimes it becomes so easy to get people coming along with you, because people can believe in the idea and they see the ID and everything goes so organically and so naturally sometimes that suddenly when it's no longer natural and organically, you get stuck, you get blocked because you've never learned to, how to structure it, how to organise for it, because the vision in itself was enough in the beginning to get people behind you, and people are raving about you, about the ID, because the ID gets people driving. And so I often think that there's always this sort of the paradox of what makes you so strong is also potentially the downfall of it.

And the same goes, for instance, for creative people, because the creative idea and the vision is so closely tied with your identity is as soon as you get pushback or a setback or some criticism, it hurts so much. And that's also why people then stop pushing that. And that is in normal business a bit differently. It's not your ID

If you fail, there's a project failed. Well, we'll do another one. But if that idea is everything that you believe then and that you've worked for and that of your work, how you look at the world and that fails, that hurts so much.
 

Vince Frost
There's something interesting on the back of that just thinking around… A lot of people focus on perfection as well, wanting to it to their product or their business or their life to be perfect. I presume you talk about that there is no such thing as perfect. because that could be intimidating as well.
 

Frederik Anseel
Yes, and it's intimidating. And that's why that's why you often hear if you look at venture capitalists and they work with creative people, that's often when they will say, ‘Now it's time to remove the creative person from the process’. Right. And we need to get some professionals in there, because that level of perfectionism can kill the company as well. And it's it is very hard and stressful for the people around it, because you put the bar so high and it's never enough. It's never good enough. And that is exhausting for the people around it. And it can sometimes sort of drain the company because you put the bar too high, because that's where you put the bar for yourself.
 

Vince Frost
So some of my team are here. I'm going to apologise to you guys right now, for that. Shelly, I was just going to ask you because around… you're creating a product. You're working in your friends, you know, on their kind of wheel, etc., trying stuff, perfecting it, getting it better, perfecting it, making it appeal to you firstly, I guess. But what made you know that it appealed to others and that not just a few people, not just a few friends to give a kind of a plate and a bowl to, but, you know, now have 12 shops around the world and incredibly busy and a massive reputation.
 

Shelley Simpson
It was interesting because I started doing trade shows and I went, I remember doing the first trade show I did in Melbourne. I think it was. I had people from other stands who had stores coming to place an order with me before the door was open at the trade show, and that was, that was there was a bit of a moment where I felt terrified.

And then the door opened, and then I had to work at, ‘Oh, hang on, I sold to this store in this suburb, so I can't sell to the next store in the same suburb’. You need to keep product space. And I learned to, you know, did things badly a lot, but it was probably that trade show where I realised that something…  I've done something that was a little bit unique, and it was the, the, the product that I had at that point - it's evolved a lot since that point. But, it was really about colour and simplicity and just being quiet a lot of the time. That's what Mud does. It doesn't overtake things. It just sits quietly in a space. And, or for me, it does. So it was about how do I then continue to evolve that?

But people would say to me, ‘Products have a seven year lifespan’. And I remember somebody saying to that, that to me, and I kind of like this ticking time bomb. Okay, I'm gonna have to come up with another idea in seven years. And it never happened. And the product has continued. But I think what changed was the business.

So then we opened retail stores and then we controlled the narrative of the product, because if you go in to buy a Mud piece from somebody who isn't a Mud employee, they will tell you all kinds of things about the product. So I went into one store once and they and they didn’t know I was from Mud and they said,’Oh, you can't put anything hot in it’.

And I went, ‘Oh, okay’. So I understood that we needed to control that narrative. And I'd also travel to Japan quite a lot at the time when we're opening retail. And I had amazing retail experiences, and I realised that in Australia we didn't sell… a lot of our retail was really lacking. And so we started talking about retail and being trying to become excellent retail stores.

And how do we look after people? How do we create communities? how do we, you know, use our billboards, our store windows and get really creative in those spaces? And that was where we have a lot of fun hanging things, things that look like they're about to fall and break.
 

Vince Frost
It's sort of interesting from afar. And we've done a project to get the number house numbers together, which was really fun, but from a distance it looks so effortless, so beautiful, so consistent. You know, like it's. But I'm sure it's hard.
 

Shelley Simpson|
It's very hard. And because I'm working with creative people all day long. So my team is full of creatives.
 

Vince Frost
Ramesh, do you feel that you're… it's not product I know it's art… but does your art sit quietly?
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
Oh no, no.
 

Vince Frost
No, no, I didn't think so.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
I think I think it's interesting to actually meditate a little bit on this idea of, you know, how I guess, you know… if I guess what we're making has some kind of material connection. I guess the context in which they circulated are very different. And I think what's really.. I think what I think what's really difficult for artists is to, especially in this climate, is to kind of come up…

I think there's a lot of expectations on especially contemporary artists to be the moral beacons of the world. You know, you know, you need to speak up. You need to actually, have anti-capitalist views… like there's all these kinds of cliches around how contemporary artists should be and how they should actually practice resistance. And I think as soon as money starts to go into the question, I think that's when a lot of anxieties start coming to the fore.

And I think for me personally, because I didn't grow up with that, you know, I've never really been worried about that, being, having proximity to it, if that makes sense. But I think the other thing that's interesting when we're talking about, I guess, communications is this idea of artists and branding is a really interesting kind of, just topic because I think, you know, at some points people will say things about they're like, ‘Oh, Ramesh is always in photos like this, all blah, blah.

You know, he has a big Instagram followin. And I always say, well, I actually feel like the way that I'm constructing my brand is actually honest. You can actually see all the mechanisms. You can see that that I am in photography and in things a certain way that I will be in media a certain way. All the mechanics are there.

Whereas most artists, I think, do create brands, yet are more coy about the kind of intentionality around that. So I always.. I'm always like, well, you know what? All my things are there. Yeah. Like you can actually see what I'm doing and like in the artwork itself. A lot of the kind of seams are exposed and I'm kind of really interested in even just the mechanics of making things and also making ideas. So it all kind of works for me.
 

Vince Frost
Well, let's talk about that a bit too around kind of the technology that we have today to be highly visible, like in any minute right now, you could post something in the world to see it. Shelley, you and I started probably before the internet, right? She was only a kid, but, but anyways, it was.
 

Shelley Simpson
Before mobile phones.
 

Vince Frost
Yeah, exactly. it was. Was it harder then? I don't know, felt it was different. But how do you know if you had the technology you have today to promote your brand with that? How would that change how you started your business?

Shelley Simpson
It really changes everything, doesn't it? It just everything is. I got such a big topic.

Vince Frost
Okay. All right, we'll move on.
 

Shelley Simpson
And, we're just going to say it's really close to my heart because I feel like what we want to do is create communities. And I know you can do that with the internet and with social and with all that stuff. But there's just something a little bit more for me. I like these conversations and, you know, I like to sit down and chat with somebody face to face.

I like to pick up the telephone. I, I don't want to be attached to my phone 24 / 7. You know, I don't want to… my team will tell you. I say yes to email. No, I don't there's no long winded…. There's no… I just don't want to be near the devices and I lose them. If I go traveling, I lose laptops all the time.
 

Vince Frost
But in terms of marketing your business, I guess the…

Shelley Simpson
It’s really important. It's really it's a really important. And it's a real struggle for me. And my head of marketing is sitting over there and we have some really interesting conversations. And it is it's a struggle for me because I like to have my hands in clay. I like to be making, you know, I like to go downstairs and spend time glazing things or problem solving at something that's going on downstairs. I don't want to spend all my time doing working on this stuff, but I do have to spend quite a bit of time doing that.
 

Vince Frost
You talked a bit before Ramesh about personal brand. And I remember a few years ago to seeing you in magazines on Instagram, ‘That guy looks cool’. Then it took me a quite a while before I started to see your work and that was really cool. Just talk about your personal brand because that, I mean, I guess you don't think necessarily about, deliberately creating a brand perhaps. But it's closely linked to your artwork. Your artwork is your is everything, I guess.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
Yeah, I yeah, I think the other thing just to say, because I know you were talking about this idea of visibility and then longevity, I think you can be as visible as you like, but it's I think it's about the quality of what we're producing. And I think that's what actually creates the longevity and the captivation and the and the audiences that you want to provoke and grow.

And I think for me, primarily like my life and my work is the art is always the first thing. You know, all that other stuff is collateral, it's context, it’s fun, it's, you know, it's ways to reach audiences. But fundamentally, like what I'm the most passionate about creating my artworks and presenting my artworks and all the other stuff are just mechanisms, tools, nuts, bolts in my mind.

But there was a very specific question there. What was the what was it?
 

Vince Frost
I totally forgot. Oh, okay. It was about creating your brand, I get it.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
Oh. Okay. You know, well, I well, my parent well, I, I have, I have a very kind of sentimental relationship with migrating to Australia, as you know, refugees and when I was going, when I went to art school, I didn't I was like, one of the only brown people there. There were no brown lecturers, you know, I was I was very South Asian.

I didn't I, you know, I lived in Auburn when I was an adult, like when I came here, like I wasn't, you know, part of this kind of eastern suburbs cultural kind of, you know, whatever.
 

Vince Frost
Hey, what you saying (laughs)?
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
And you know, oh, I'm kind of saying is, for me visibility and the fact that people wanted to photograph me, wanted to show and profile me in media that wasn't only art based, but lifestyle based, I kind of suddenly started seeing myself as a little bit beyond myself and having more of a social function. Like I can actually represent a group or a community that's a little bit beyond me, and show possibility and, you know, to actually be active in those spaces.

And I actually do. And that's kind of why I was always really open to it. And I think I also have the personality to like, if someone like… I'm quite pragmatic, if someone puts a camera at me, I'll put my photo face on, like I'm not going to be awkward. Like, if you need the photo, you're getting the photo.

And I think it's that kind of level of pragmatism within our world that I think we also always also need to just kind of suck up and be involved in. Like I always say to students and people I mentor, I'm like, just one face, one outfit, nail it. Seriously, just get it, get it right. Like that's all you need.

You know what I mean? Like at whatever level. But I think when you're working as a contemporary artist with galleries and lots of layers of management, you also have those layers of management. So you can actually clear your mind and focus on the thing you love the most, which is the dreaming and the speculation to actually progress your art and make sure that fundamentally, your art is the thing that's driving things forward.

And I'm not saying that that's a, that's the best model, that's the only model. But for me, like 95% of my life is… I'm it's completely unglamorous. Like I'm covered in crap. Like my hair is so dry because of the dust, you know, like it's not glamorous at all. And I lecture here like, I'm probably one day a week and I think back to that thing about visibility, like I like to teach.

I think it's also about values like how are you instilling values within the community? And for me, I think contributing to art and especially contemporary art pedagogy is something that I'm quite passionate about because I think that can make a real difference in our how our industry can grow and shape and develop.
 

Vince Frost
Frederik, I was just thinking in terms of maybe you've been around long enough to see how people are using technology, obviously, for their businesses to run the businesses, but also promote the businesses. You now can be sitting here as an individual and start a business and share your ideas, your brand to the world instantly. How do you… which would have done the job of dozens of people in the past?

How can you utilize that to achieve your personal goal? That's a big I mean, that's probably too broad a question.
 

Frederik Anseel
I have a slide deck here.
 

Vince Frost
Oh, okay.
 

Frederik Anseel
It's interesting time and a hard time at the same time because indeed, anyone here in the audience can immediately create something, has all the tools, probably on their phone to be out there and have something that can get picked up, go viral, and you're world famous maybe by tomorrow morning.

But if everyone thinks that, and everyone is thinking that, it means that it is extremely hard to cut through all that. And so in a sense, it's still the same situation because we have a lot more opportunities and technology, but because everyone has them, it's not necessarily much easier to do it, right? And a lot of people get deceived by all the news stories of people who have been able to do it and have been able to monetise an idea, a creation, and then you think, it's so easy and let's try it.

But of course, that is survivorship bias, right? You do not see the 99 .9. 9% that never got anywhere right? And sometimes people just get lucky. That's also the other part that gets underplayed of course, is sometimes you just need a bit of luck as well. And so the technology part of it, helps a lot of people.

But yeah, people also get stuck in… I don't want to be too cynical, but if you see the, the volumes of YouTube videos being there that nobody watches, that nothing happens with that are boring, that are all the same. A lot of great creative talent is also wasted on all the new technologies.
 

Vince Frost
So how many businesses in your, in your view are successful just on the back of people just doing what they love and working bloody hard at it, versus having a big plan and big investment and all that.
 

Frederik Anseel
Oh, I can't put numbers on it. I would warn for… I've said this a lot, giving people the advice, the advice when they're young to just find your passion and follow your passion. I think it's also dangerous advice. Because there's another part that people don't say out loud is, you also if you want to be successful and make a living out of it, you also need to be good at it.

There's a lot of people that are passionate about something, but if you're not in the real, if you don't have the real talent for it, passion and talent are something else, right? And so it can be extremely frustrating. And so sometimes people benefit also from saying that ‘Maybe this is not for you’, or ‘Maybe that will always be a hobby for you, which is great if you find it meaningful and you get a great life that's so great’.

But sometimes and that's, I think, where the sort of environment comes in and the coaching and mentoring and the community and of course people can get better and, and but there's a risk in passion because passion can also sort of burn you, right? And some people walk into the wall over and over just because they've learned you need to find your passion.

And not everyone finds their passion or that's the other thing. You create your passion. A passion is not something to be found always, right. We think like, ‘Oh, it's out there and I'll try things and I'll find it’. Sometimes you start doing something boring and after a while you find it amusing and you get excited about it, and then you discover that you're very good at it and then you make a career out of it. I didn't have a passion to become an academic. That's a boring thing.
 

Vince Frost
You said it.
 

Frederik Anseel
Yeah.
 

Vince Frost
But I’m sure it's not.
 

Frederik Anseel
Yes. And then after doing it more and more and more and I actually, I became quite good at it. And now I like it.
 

Vince Frost
Well, I think it's also quite disappointing is that when people, people have done really well and you know them personally have worked, you know, whatever off for a long time and people dismiss it as luck. And it's not luck. Right. It's like.

Shelley Simpson
I don't like the word luck.

Vince Frost
No, I don't like it.
 

Shelley Simpson
It's not actually… I mean, I win raffles, so I am lucky, but that's the only bit when it's not in business.
 

Vince Frost
Okay.
 

Shelley Simpson
You work really hard. Yeah. And I used to say it a lot. And I think women say it more than men. ‘Oh, I've been really lucky’, you know, but we... 30 years of hard work, I'm sure.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
Like, if you want to have longevity and sustainability and have that as a practice, I think I think a couple of instances of luck might be helpful. But I don't think that core to the situation in any capacity. what I will say though, is I, I feel maybe not lucky, but privileged that I found people that I work with that I love and are so aligned with me, like my gallerist Sullivan and Strumpf in Sydney.

And Jhaveri Contemporary in Mumbai. Like, I have such a values alignment with them and a shared work ethic.
 

Vince Frost
Yeah.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
And without their expertise around all these things that I don't have expertise about, like I wouldn't have been able to guide my practice or capacity in those ways. So like and surely there's an element of coming together, you know, that's serendipitous.

But I have to work - those relationships take time to build. And that level of trust, like my I, I've learned recently that like, you know, you build trust over time. You don't just let the floodgates open, you know. So it's about this kind of process of revealing a little bit more, seeing what the response is, gaining that trust, and then kind of keep pushing and pulling. And now I'm at the stage where I like, trust them completely. And that I think for me is what I feel the most lucky about.
 

Shelley Simpson
But there have been some people probably along the way that weren't so trustworthy that you shouldn't, you know, like, let's talk.
 

Vince Frost
Talk about that. That sounds good. Can you give us an example Shelly?
 

Shelley Simpson
I don't know. There's people at the end. And then those relationships can also go sour because, you know, if you're succeeding and they're not succeeding, they would like some of that success or whatever it is. I don't even I mean, anyone that knows me knows like you, I'm in the coal mine all day, working really hard, looking shabby and nothing about my life is glamorous at all.

Like I occasionally I get to do a nice event and get dressed up, and I'm….  And I'm like a fish out of water. And that's 30 years of that, so I don't… I find it interesting, the idea that that, that, professional jealousies sort of creep in and, and those distrustful situations…
 

Vince Frost
If you're looking back at you, if you're talking to yourself, 30, 29 years ago, starting out, what would you say? Like what advice would you give yourself?
 

Shelley Simpson
Be stronger than you think you can be. Yeah. and I don't know if that's a gender specific thing, but, definitely… you need to be stronger than you think you can be.
 

Vince Frost
Ramesh?
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
I would have had to just told myself, ‘be prepared for an unconventional lifestyle’. And I'm not talking unconventional life; cult, polyamorous marriage, you know, not in that kind of way. Just in terms of you not you're not really going to have a 9 to 5. You're not going to have leave. You're not, you know, like this if those are the kind of rhythms that you aspire to that's not happening for you. You know, if you want to be an artist.
 

Vince Frost
Would that put you off doing it.


Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
It would have put me off more so because like all my cousins had that and then I had to hear about their mortgages and things, you know what I mean? So it was like that was the issue, but I don't know, like it's I never thought that I'd be like actually earning a living from my art works like that.

Like, I like I always this is going to sound ridiculous, like I always gets, I always get surprised that people have money to buy an artwork. Like I'm like, oh, wow, you can you have 5000. You have, you know, whatever money. You know, like that's anyway so that's a, that's a very that's something I have to think about.

Vince Frost
Frederik, do creative people have different strengths and weaknesses in terms of their, their kind of, I guess, ability to run a business or should they go into business? I think you kind of touched on a bit of that before, but yeah.
 

Frederik Anseel
I would first say that the most distinctive ability is the creative ability, because that is not everyone has that creative ability, and it's very hard to sort of figure out what that exactly is. But some  - and it's also not like I have a creative ability, and so I'll be creative in every single thing I do or in every context.

So it is very situational, right? And, but there's something like people that have almost an innate creative ability you can develop bit, but there are differences and a lot follows from that. But then I would say that basically there are no limits or rules. So you can have people that have a creative ability who are great business people that can manage structure, finance things, and you can have creative people that really suck at it as well.

Right? And there's no rules. There's no such thing as, I'm sorry to say this, I'm a left brain person or a right brain person, that really does not exist. Right? So, if you're a creative person, it could be very well that you're also a great manager and that you can run your own business. But it could be that that's not the case. So an important task is to find out, right, what your strengths and weaknesses are and have that sort of self-awareness.
 

Vince Frost
I guess, kind of talking about kind of maintaining your quality of your product, like your, your work, all of your work and our work too. It's like been in business for 30 years through wars, Covid, GFCs, divorces, like everything. You know, people buying a Mud product in New York don't need to know that you woke up at 4:00 in the morning because a mail truck drove by to the like. The people don't know the story behind how all the things that are going on in in your life, in your business, it's that maintaining the quality of your output is so important, isn't it?
 

Frederik Anseel
Yeah. And I think that is what I said in the beginning, that creative vision, what I loved was what you're saying. You said it looks so effortless and you say, right, but it is not effortless, right?
 

Vince Frost
Yeah.
 

Frederik Anseel
And that is, I think, the peak mastery that you've brought all your skills and 100,000 hours of work and insight and expertise together, and it culminates in this fact that somebody is saying it's effortless. It seems so easy and that, you know, my God, it is not easy. And I think that is perfecting the art of that creative vision that is consistent over the years.
 

Vince Frost
Would you do it - would you focus on that perfection of the product or the artwork, despite the commercial success of that? Like, would you still do your art Ramesh? Would you still put that same passion into it if somebody didn't, and people didn't buy it? Do you have to make it anyways?
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
It's this is what I kind of think I, I you know what? I don't have experience on, I'd never looked at shapes of like I only had zero like last year, you know what I mean? So I can see cash flow and things. But like I have had to accept that because things have sold and I've had an income for a certain amount of time, I am likely to keep that going.

You know, and I never feel like that. So I kind of have to keep doing what I'm doing, which is always pushing my own creative boundaries and just hope that that happens, you know, and like, I think for me, that's the hardest part about having ‘a’ business, you know, it's this idea that like, it's that kind of constant sense of surprise when you do well.

But I think maintaining the art work is - I think it also comes down to a value system. Like, I don't want to be, I always want to be pushing the boundaries within my own practice, but also within the kind of, I guess, genres and conventions and discourses of the specific art context that I'm working within. And as we know, these things always changing.

So art always has to change. So that's… so I always think it's also down to the kind of values alignment. And interestingly, Frederik, when you talk about creativity, I also think we can think about creativity as a value. You know, as well as an adjective and a noun. And I think for me that's kind of important because I often think that this idea of creativity is this kind of fetishised, you know, the ‘creative person’ is this like, you know, thing born in some, you know, who knows how they're made, who knows how their brain came, but I also I've kind of noticed that especially to create artworks, I think there's actually an element of training that has to happen in my mind, which is to constantly be aware of scripts, cliches, certain even design principles, and being really conscious in how to avoid them, then understanding that culturally these things and things always change. And I think for me, that's almost like a repetitious resistance training model, which kind of allows the creativity to keep going.

But I don't really know what creativity means. But this is a bit random; but I always think it's making the most from very like very finite parameters.

Frederik Anseel
I always think, so maybe I study creativity because I'm not creative at all and I'm always amazed…  for me, the creativity is creating something out of nothing, seeing something somewhere where there's nothing. And I think that is sort of that creative thing that I'm looking at a wall and I don't see anything. Maybe you look at the wall and say, ‘it could be. it could be doing something here’.

Vince Frost
I think that we're.. we've got a lot more questions here we could go through, but we've also got some, questions from the audience that we want to, ask. Are audiences valuing creative pursuits less because of AI creations or are people craving human touch and design? Maybe start with that. Can these, views coexist?
 

Shelley Simpson
Hopefully the handmade aesthetic of Mud and the fact that we still have a studio In Marrickville where we manufacture everything and it's all made by people's hands, means that people do still value that process. And I think that a lot of design spaces, architecturally, design spaces have got very hard edges and are less feminine or creative in, in those spaces. So adding a little bit of a handmade process is valued. I hope.
 

Vince Frost
I think also just around… like your I love your products before I knew you but every time I have a meal or whatever, the aura that comes from that physical, the energy that's been put into it emits, I feel. Sounds a bit hokey, but I think that's the connection with a product or a thing that there's something, an energy coming from that. And to be the same with your artwork, right? Ramesh?
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
I'm kind of not scared of AI or anything like that. I'm very happy to use it in my studio. If it's if it's at all like, why not? But I think what's really interesting is when like thinking about contemporary art in a kind of more specific or discursive way, you know, there are often very specific trends you know, in curation, in the types of art that's presented.

And, you know, when I was at art school, everyone was like, ‘Oh, painting's dead. No one's painting anymore’. Yet, it's like, I still see painting everywhere, you know? And I think even historically, like we're talking about, you know, thousands of years, we've always been making things with our hands and there's that fascination. And, and I think it's the kind of knowledge and making that is really important because it's, it's intuitive and structured and emotional and tactile all at the same time.

And it's really hard to actually create a language equivalent of what it means and how it feels to make something with your hands. And I think that has a real ability to captivate audiences. But I think that, like, I think for me, what I'd like to think about is having -creating audiences, audience experiences, that kind of position the audience as quite smart, if that makes sense.

So I like, I'm very happy to use whatever technology and understand that people are generally culturally literate and are able and should be able to kind of read these things.
 

Vince Frost
And Fred, you're obviously you're teaching creativity and innovation, etc.. How does that.. what are you teaching in that regard in terms of AI? How is that affecting creativity or. Yeah?
 

Frederik Anseel
I think AI will be a bit like the internet - it will be everywhere and everything we do. But so I very much agree, all the real, deep, fundamental, meaningful sort of creative acts will maybe even become more important because of course, AI is helpful to create creativity. This is almost a contradiction, but it's almost like predictable creativity, right? While true, authentic creativity always comes with the story of a human experience that connects with other people, I'm 100% certain that that is not going to go away, ever.
 

Vince Frost
Got a great question here. I can relate to this one.  Are introverts at a disadvantage in leading a creative practice? Any advice on for finding clients when sociability isn't one strong point? Anonymous of course.

I can totally relate to that because I was I was painfully shy, believe it or not. and starting out in business, I was so shy, I couldn't even didn't even know what clients were or where they were, and didn't really know how to find them. So it could be an a disadvantage, I think, at the beginning, if you just leave it at that, but realise that people aren't scary and keep pursuing it and following it.
 

Frederik Anseel
I think it's fair to acknowledge that it can be disadvantage. If you look at in, generally in business, we see in the beginning that people who are extroverted are more likely to become leaders. I'm not going to say that they're better leaders or effective leaders, but they're more likely to become leaders in the beginning. The same goes for salespeople.

If you're extroverted, that's clearly an advantage, so there's no sense in denying that. But there's a lot of different ways, even if you're more introverted, to make those things work, right? So yeah.
 

Vince Frost
Ramesh, you clearly weren't introverted as a child.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
So I actually was. I like to struggle to make friends.
 

Vince Frost
Really?
 

 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
Yeah. no, but. I actually, I think you are at a disadvantage in a creative industry if you're fairly introverted and I don't… I'm not saying that as like a defeatist, like a nihilistic, you know, way, but I think everybody has strengths and weaknesses, you know, believe it or not, I do too. And I think it's about, it's about acknowledging that and thinking like, you know, I'm going to give a thing… like every now and then I don't want to go to an industry event, but then sometimes I think actually it's not relevant to whether I want to go or not. It's a little bit like eating healthily, actually, it's not relevant whether I want to or not.

I kind of just have to. And then I just think, okay, I'm going to go for 40 minutes, make the most of it, talk to many people and bounce, you know? And I think there are these kinds of ways you can actually acknowledge and work within those spaces. But what I will also think about is I think Shelley also mentioned this. There are also structural things that kind of affect the way that people move through spaces. I know you've kind of alluded to gender a few times, and you know, a lot of these spaces… these spaces don't exist in cultural and societal vacuums. You know, some people don't feel comfortable to move into spaces because they aren’t accessible or, you know, for a number of reasons.

There might be a class kind of narrative around, or a genda narrative. And I think that's something that's really hard for people to actually understand. And move through and actually even talk about in public space.

Shelley Simpson
But don't you think it's all about practicing? And, you know, whether it's, you know, you get better at making ceramics because you practice, you know, nobody's good at it to start with. And it's the same with business. You've got to practice all of these things. You've got to, you know, suck it up like you said. And just try negotiating a better deal for yourself, or try speaking to a telecommunications company and getting a better deal for the company or whatever it is.

But you've got to practice being… putting yourself out there. So can an introvert be a successful business person if they practice? Sure, why not?
 

Vince Frost
Absolutely. And find your way of connecting with people and finding, you know, that way and, and training like, you know, do presentation courses or voice projection courses or whatever it might be. I think a good thing for me at the time was… I was sitting there after about a month on the phone, not ringing, I had the computer and a business card and a phone. I knew I could do the work, but nobody knew I existed. And that was really weird. I thought, okay, I'm a business now, it's going to start.

And I was like…And then I realise, you know, that month went by, I had no money coming in. And I was like, that fear of actually not survival actually kicked in and I had to step out of my comfort zone. So now I love connecting with people, and I think it's really fun. And I'm less scared of people. I was really scared of people.

I thought everybody knew how the world worked, and they were better than me and all that kind of stuff. And it's really cool to realise we're all human beings here trying to make do our best, you know, trying to make it all work. Does anybody in the panel currently have a have a job? No. Does anybody, on the panel currently have a business mentor or have you used one in the past? Would you recommend one? And how did you go about finding them?

Shelley Simpson
I did the New Enterprise Incentive Scheme, which is a government scheme that if you they will pay you the equipped still in existence people who do this. I'm not speaking for it because a lot of it was terrible, but, they pay the equivalent of unemployment benefits for a year. You can earn as much money on top of that as you like.

They help you to write a business plan. I really wish I knew where mine was, but they also give you a mentor. And the woman who looked after me, had a toolbox company. So as far away from my business, and that sort of creative business. But I worked out that she could teach me all about tax and compliance and how to negotiate a better telecommunications deal or whatever it is you know, the things that I didn't know how to do, she could show me.

And we had this relationship for a year or whatever. And occasionally when something, you know, went really scarily wrong, I'd just pick up the phone and ring her and she'd give me her opinion, which was great. So mentors, I've had many different mentors all through my business and love all of them and love mentoring people. I think it's great win win.
 

Vince Frost
So Kylie. Get in touch with Shelley.
 

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
I think it's Important to actually also self-reflect and know what questions to ask. You know, I think a lot of the time to actually get the support and get the answers, you actually need to reflect and know how to frame the question that you're putting forward. And actually, I think what's really interesting is, I think there’s this mentorship, you have to find the.. you actually shouldn't listen to everyone.

You know, I think that's a really important thing to remember, you know, I talk about with artists, I go, you want to find a mentor that has a career that might be comparable to one you might like to have. Yeah. You know  it's foundational like. Yeah. Or has a, a values alignment within their practice. Don't just listen to everybody.
 

Vince Frost
Because it could be confusing.

Ramesh Mario Nithiyendran
So it's also I don't, like. I think when you're especially in the in creative contexts there's so much room. You know there's multiple creative worlds within different worlds. You need to find out where you fit.
 

Shelley Simpson
There's a lot of opinions as well. We don't necessarily want everybody's opinion. Frederik you were going to say something as well.
 

Frederik Anseel
Oh yeah. In the past weeks, somebody has regularly advised me that I need a coach. Apparently I'm doing something… but I, I agree with this.
 

Vince Frost
You need a coach or you need to coach?
 

Frederik Anseel
No, no, I need a coach. But I, I agree with there's a risk in that. You listen, then you get too influenced by a coach or by mediocre views, especially if you're a real original creative thinker. But on the business side, I just wanted to highlight if people have ideas, there's things like incubators, accelerators, start-up sort of mentoring. If you're looking for something that does not cost a lot of money, most universities have a lot of those things, including UNSW. We have founder programs. We have accelerators. If you have a great idea and you want to think about how to make that in a business, you can come and knock at the door.
 

Vince Frost
That's incredible. I know when I was starting out, I just started, I was I actually felt quite awkward about asking other people for advice because you kind of people kind of thought you're kind of getting on and doing it well. I think don't be scared of asking for advice and ask somebody else who might be advising them.

Or I used to kind of go around to some of my competitors, even in bigger design companies in London and, and meet up with the founders. And, I mean, what I thought was really cool was that I've never met anybody who hasn't said… wasn't been open to giving their time free and kindly, kind of giving kind of insights.

And, you know, how they how they kind of got to where they are today. In fact, if you want to listen to my podcast ‘Design Your Life’- that's a good plug - there's about 133 interviews on there with different creative people, about how they kind of manage their life and found what they're doing. So people are genuinely open, and kind and generous as well.

We're going to wrap it up. You guys have been amazing. Thank you so much for all the questions and sitting there and partaking in as well. You guys have been fabulous. It's been a great conversation and very funny at times as well. Thank you UNSW, Claire and  the team for putting this wonderful creative conversations on again.

And there's a new one coming up. I don't know when it is - August. There we go. Thank you guys.
 

UNSW Centre for Ideas
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